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islam.de: Where are you living at the moment, what are you doing? What’s your current job?
Tariq Ramadan: Presently I’m based in London, visiting professor at St. Antony’s College Oxford. I’m teaching Islamic studies in the European Study Centre and the Middle East Centre. I’m doing mainly two kinds of things, I’m working within academia, writing and speaking but at the same time I am connecting to the ground, what we call an activist scholar.
"It is a problem within the religious field that we are all following a kind of fashion"
islam.de: How comes that you became a kind of cult figure among some of the Muslim youth?
Ramadan: I don’t like it at all. My teaching is to tell the people who are listening, “don’t think like me, but learn to think without me” - which is such a difference. It means to be self-critical and the best people for me are the people who are able to criticise, to ask questions and to build. This is why I am always a speaking about intellectual creativity. It doesn’t mean to change your religion but to have a good understanding who you are, to be able to deal with new answers where you are.
It is a problem within the religious field that we are all following a kind of fashion. Fashionable people like the way they speak. Very often when I speak about spirituality people like you and say: ‘Wow that’s very great’. Then I am thinking: Look, I’m not what I’m saying, I’m just trying to be as I am speaking and trying like you. If I were what I’m saying, I would be invisible, would be an angel. So never idealize someone, because you are going to be disappointed. Try to be who you are, understand what the people are saying and build your own personality, your own way. The only ideal man for us was the prophet (peace be upon him) and never forget the Chinese proverb: When the wise man show you the moon don’t be obsessed by the finger.
"I want to be voice for the voiceless"
islam.de: Why are you in some countries almost a persona non grata?
Ramadan: Not almost. That is the case.
islam.de: We heard about the trouble when you wanted to visited the USA…
Ramadan: I’m coming from a political exile, my father (Rahamahu Allah) had to leave the country because of Nasser’s repression. It was during the fifties. I decided something and I will never give up on that. I want to be voice for the voiceless. And the voiceless are the people who are not able to speak and who are under political repression. So whatever the risk is, whatever is said about me in Europe, I will never stop speaking about these governments that are oppressing their population.
Saudi Arabia is a slavery state. It is not acceptable and a shame that the Muslims keep silent and a shame that they are blaming the West not supporting the Palestinians where the most betrayers in these so called Islamic majority countries are with their government. These are the betrayers; they are not doing their job. The last time I went to Saudia Arabia - now I can’t - I saw the way the Pakistanis were treated. I came back here and say: Ok, look you may feel that you are not well treated in this country but it is easier to be a Moroccan Muslim in Holland than to be a Pakistani Muslim in Saudia Arabia.
People don’t mention their country place. I have mentioned it. So I am facing this [of being a persona non grata]. I will never forget the oppression in Egypt. I was prevented from entering in France for 10 months – this was 10 years ago - because of the pressure of the Egyptian ambassador asking the French government not to let me in because of the critical time during the election in Egypt. Egypt is not a democratic society and I was relying in amnesty international’s reports saying that what is going on in Egypt is playing torture.
Now we know that the CIA is using planes and charter to take people and to send them to Morocco to Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, Syria to put the people to these authorities to torture them. They have a list of questions and they have to give them the answers. This is what the States the United States of America, the great democracy is doing. They are using our airports in Britain in Switzerland to do that. The CIA charter’s using airports of democracy to put people in the hands of torture. This is not acceptable.
So why am I controversial? Because of that, I will never be silent on that. It could be also about Tunisia. Tunisia is a big jail, it is the greatest jail. What is the difference between the dogs in Algeria and the dogs in Tunisia? The Algerian dogs are free to bark. Who is speaking about that? Who is speaking about what is going on in jail there? So this is why I can’t go there, because I’m critical.
It is similar with the States. I visited the States 30 times in four years. I was to be a professor of Islamic Studies at Notre Dame University, it was a permanent job and I was going to stay there. Nine days before going to the Sates I was prevented to do that. It started with Daniel Pipes who put me on the watch list of the campuses. When you are critical towards the Israeli policy supporting the Palestinians, there is something which is called the Campus Watch, mentioning the professors who are too supportive. When they asked me to reapply, the American ambassador asked me: What is your position on Iraq? I said it was wrong. You made a mistake, and I’m critical towards your policy in Iraq and I’m critical towards your unilateral policy towards Israel and the Palestinian conflict. They don’t like that.
But this is my position and I’m critical from that and supporting the Palestinians. I say it is legitimate resistance using sometimes illegitimate means, but the Palestinian resistance is legitimate.
"We have to integrate the surrounding culture as a part of our identity but we are not"
islam.de: What do Muslims have to do in order to do decrease the discrimination against them? What went wrong in the past? What are the mistakes at the Muslim work, at the Muslim process?
Ramadan: We have to be more self-critical. Which kind of Islamic education are we giving and providing in the West? Unfortunately we are imitating a kind of Islamic education we got in the countries of origin and we have to change that first. The different readings are here and we have to understand that they are different readings.
Second we have to integrate the surrounding culture as a part of our identity but we are not.
"There are two features of our mentality that we have to change: the minority obsession and victimhood"
islam.de: For example?
Ramadan: Look at that what we call an “Islamic bookshop”. Islamic bookshops where Islamic books are, written by Muslims read by Muslims in places where only Muslims go. How could you have an open mind, when you have symbolic spaces just segregating and closed?
Open the door for the British literature, the French… I’m a second generation Muslim in my country, meaning that my father and my mother are coming from Egypt. After the Quran, the first book I got was a book of French poetry! My father was telling me this is your culture, read! Here, still after five generations: This is the book of Islam, finish, stop. You are promoting a kind of schizophrenic identity. You live with others and you read only or what you are pushed to read. This is very dangerous, so we need to be more critical on the Islamic education. It doesn’t mean that you have to take everything. Take a selective approach to the environment and the culture, take the positive things.
We have also a problem with arts and creations and many people are thinking: “Oh this is haram”. We are very simplistic in the way we are promoting something which is an Islamic culture. As we want to protect our morality, we give teenagers Islamic songs. When you listen to them, you hear it’s done for very very young people, maybe 8 years old. I’m not going to listen to that when I’m 18 or 20. The style is: “I’m a Muslim, I’m happy. That’s fine that’s good.” (Anasheed) But the lyrics are for the very young. So if you want a native culture, it should be more sophisticated and it is not only by putting some Islamic words on them like “Alhamdulilah”. We have to be creative on that field as well.
The last thing is civic education, to be part of your society, to know about the institutions, about the culture and to know that it is the best way to help the society is to contribute for the future, to help the oppressed people throughout the world, to vote in your country, to participate and to be a driving force. This is not done. So we are very isolated, very under defensive and we need to be more proactive. This is the future, it is coming but it is a too much reactive emotional attitude that we have.
And there are two features of our mentality that we have to change: the minority obsession. NO - I’m coming with a majority message: I want justice, I want equality, want the people to be able to just to apply the law. This is not a minority discourse this is a majority discourse. Let us force together not to be obsessed with minorities. By the way: when you are a German citizen, you are a citizen and there is no minority citizenship. I am citizen and that’s it. So don’t put me in a minority box. I’m part of this society.
The second aspect is about victimhood. “Oh they don’t like us we are the victims of their systems.” I don’t care! Ask for your rights. They are not going to give you the rights on the table and say here are your rights. No! Struggle for your rights! It’s always like this. We are pushed on specific boxes because by thinking that you are a minority or by thinking that you are a victim, you are not going to change. You know, it is exactly what you can find in the American system. They don’t care in the States about a community as long as you don’t touch the centre of power. So organize yourself. They keep the power, you share the spaces. They are not going to share power.
I wrote an article and at the end of this article on the French situation I said: You are going to learn how to share powers, not only memories, all the “good things”, saying “we can share values and principals…”. As it comes to power: “it is ours”. I think that this is the real discussion and we have to know that the future is to share everything.
Events could just help you to change the situation and helps you have to change your own mentality.
islam.de: You represent a very liberal but still stick to the islamic principles. A part sees everywhere the “concept of the enemy”, believes that we are in a state of war. How do you want to convince these people, how should we as Muslims discuss within our community?
Ramadan: I don’t want to convince them out of discourse. I think it is on the ground. What I can just tell these people, having a very closed perception or a binary vision of the world: Look what’s going on. Out of your own experience, you can see what works and what doesn’t work. Your own experience is teaching you to look at the reality. Second: We must show the people what works and here you can just say: I’m remaining a Muslim and in the same time I’m involved in this society.
Five years ago before September 11th, I went to the ISNA (Islamic Society of North America ) convention, it’s the big meeting, its full with 40.000 people. I was speaking about citizenship, sharing views, proactivity, being an American citizen. After six minutes, I got a small piece of paper from the moderator saying: “You have to end.” Only six minutes! I took twelve. With me was Hamza Yousef, he had at that time a very traditional view saying, “Don’t take from the western culture, this is not yours.” He is a convert, but he was dressed as a Sheikh coming from the Middle East. This is not how to teach, it is far from this society, saying this is not yours. Yousef spoke for one and a half our! He started by saying: “Oh yes, Tariq Ramadan, you know that’s fine. Think what you think, but this it the right thing: …” After September 11th last year 90% of the conference and the lectures at ISNA were about: citizenship, American culture, being involved.
islam.de: Why?
Ramadan: Because of September 11th and the pressure and they [Muslims] say now: We are American Muslims. We should share our views and principles. Ok, that’s fine. Now Hamza Yousef is saying exactly that and he dresses like us. Everything has changed. He is speaking about citizenship, speaking about American culture. You asked me how could we change? Events could just help you to change the situation and helps you have to change your own mentality and now we are on the same line Alhamdulilah.
islam.de: So the effect of “terrorism” also changed the thinking of the Muslim Community?
Ramadan: Yes it has changed. Muslims were asked what their opinion is. They have to answer. Some were saying: I don’t think that Muslims were behind this, it is an international conspiracy. After one, two or three events they had to speak out and now they are saying: Ok, we have to be self-critical with the radical views. They have to say: No, this is not Islam. So self-criticism is coming out of that and then they understood that it is not out of speeches that you can change the perception of the people. Very often you can appoint people saying: “These Muslims, I don’t trust them but I trust you. You are not like them.” But in fact you are like them. The only difference is that he or she knows you, but not “them”.
It is not a question of knowledge. And the Muslims are now acknowledging the fact that if you are not connecting to the people in your own society they are not going to change the mentalities. You are not changing mentalities out of discourse. It is how you are involved in your society and mainly about the domestic issues. The problem is that the Muslims are obsessed with international issues.
They want to help the Palestinians by shouting in the streets. It is good. But the best way for you to help the oppressed people throughout the world is to be connected to the society and to be active in your society and to tell your government: Look we are asking you for consistency. After what happened they are realizing that their mentality should change. They have to be more involved, some of them of course, not all. But I think that the main mainstream Muslim organizations and the Muslims in the West are now are slowly and step by step coming.
islam.de: Prof. Ramadan, thank you for the interview.